Smashing the Patriarchy etc

[berthasdad]

Ah, the 'just be kind' gambit...
And fuk the consequences for the rights, protections and wellbeing of women and vulnerable kids?
Well, I am really concerned about the impact of gender ideology (you're really disappointed? Sorry, not sorry) - along with plenty of other critical thinkers...

[fran]

Nah. The "won't somebody think of the children" moral panic is the same rubbish that they were saying about gay people in the 90s. It's the same old lies wearing a slightly new mask, and I have very little patience for it.

Anyway, hooray for Green Man making efforts to be trans-inclusive in the face of this sort of nonsense.

[fran]

Aug 26, 2023 8:29:06 GMT ross10 said:

(...)how do they calculate it? Is there an accepted approach? Is it any band with a female or non binary person in? Or does it have to be majority female or non binary, or fronted by? Or is it just adding up all the band members.

This is a really interesting point! I would hope it's something along the lines of "majority female and/or female fronted", but someone would have to spend a long time reading through the programme to check whether that's the case...

Speaking for myself I've found it really nice that there isn't the overwhelming dominance of all-male acts that we had a decade or more ago. It used to feel like I could easily watch a whole afternoon of music without seeing a single woman on stage, which can start to feel weirdly isolating after a while.

[berthasdad]

"The "won't somebody think of the children" moral panic is the same rubbish that they were saying about gay people in the 90s."....
...More critical thinking in action. Not...

have you stopped to ask if this IS the same as the fight for gay rights? Or just happy to parrot the line? It's a false narrative, and yet another great strapline to trot out.

Plenty of gay people push back against forced-teaming with TQ+ - think the concept of 'a lesbian with a dick' isn't homophobic? I don't know lesbians who want to date a girl with a dick, do you?

Gay people weren't demanding that the rights of other protected characteristics (women, religion) be ignored. There was no medical/pharmaceutical business standing to profit from gay rights. 'Moral panic' to medicalise vulnerable young people? Come and meet a de-transitioner or two.

Talking about 'this sort of nonsense' - progressive, liberal, lifelong left-leaning folk, like me, need to open their minds a bit more to this misogynistic nonsense, which forces everyone to ignore the truth, harms women and lies to children.

[fran]

Are you personally in the queer community, or just pretending to speak on their behalf? I'm a bisexual woman who, yes, does known lesbians who are fine with trans women. Some people have personal dating preferences and that's fine, no one is going to start assigning them a government mandated trans person that they are required to date.

Recent YouGov polling data showed that 84% of lesbians have a positive view of trans people (

Do you actually know any trans people? Or are you just talking about a scary boogie monster you imagine? We have a trans woman in my women-only book club, and I assure you the world didn't end when she joined.

I'd really suggest you take a step back from this issue and have a think about why THIS is apparently the big problem bothering you, rather than the actual problems society is facing (poverty, climate change, anti-immigrant nationalism, etc)

[berthasdad]

Thanks for telling me what problems should be bothering me. Activists like me are bothered enough to bring these conversations into places where we believe a little more light should be shed..
The recent survey that shows up to 40% of British people are unsure whether the term 'transwoman' refers to someone born female somehwhat undermines your poll results..
murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2023/08/07/clarity-matters-how-placating-lobbyists-obscures-public-understanding-of-sex-and-gender/

I'm glad your trans-identifying book club member is nice. Doesn't not make this less misogynistic. Are women allowed single sex spaces? What about muslim or jewish women whose religion (a protected characteristic under the EA 2010) requires them? Ok to exclude them so that trans identifying men can join in and feel comfortable?

What place do drag queens have somewhere like Green Man? Womanface is a gross insult not just to radical feminists, but to lots of women. But who cares what women think anyway, eh?

[rayrad]

always fabulous when someone repeatedly trots out a phrase like 'critical thinking' to defend their position

as if the rest of us are just a bunch of cult-members hypnotised into going along with some liberal group-think dictate

honestly, it's a litle rude

but then that seems to be your MO

darling, why are you so desperately angry?

as fraz asked and you failed to answer, do you know any trans people?

any non-binary people?

presumably not, as you questioned their very existence in an earlier post

when i misread 'ask' as 'as' in your original response, i tried to be generous and sympathetic to your position as someone caught up in a situation that could only be desperately difficult (as the parent of a child questioning their gender)

but now we know that you're just some poor threatened man furiously googling outrage, your consistent anger and relentless dismissiveness of the intelligence of the rest of us is beginning to grate

so i'll step out

no doubt, you'll find my reluctance to further engage with your hateful mindset some kind of tacit yielding to the force of your argument

well, whatever makes you feel better

but bigots like you aren't going to change their minds

so why waste my time?

good luck fighting the future

mwah!

[moz]

Does Graham Linehan have a kid called Bertha?

I guess, now 'we' (?!) arn't allowed to abuse people of colour or a different religion or of a different sex or sexual orientation, its now Trans people who are the focus of some troubled individuals who are afraid of something different then refuse to try to understand & empathise. I guess, next, it will be people with ginger hair. OR have a ying yang tattoo.

Seriously.......go have a cup of tea and some custard creams (unless the wokerati have banned that too, AMIRIGHT?*), stay off GB news and read a nice book. Don't be afraid. We are all people trying to stay alive on this blue green planet (which is increasingly getting harder, with the shit that gets chucked up in the air. And the literal shit being pumped into the seas...). Live and let live.

*this is a joke. The wokerati does not exist. Anymore. Their 2003 album 'ooo, i like to be nice me' was a flop so they split. Singer Gary now works at my local kwik fit. Nice lad. Has a ying yang tattoo though. So......swings & roundabouts.

[berthasdad]

hateful mindset...poor threatened man...
Graham Linehan's kid....

i get it.

I'm not angry I'm just disappointed. You believe that expanding the definition of woman to include men is ok, 'cos men say so. I don't.
People can't change sex and that matters. In some situations quite a lot.

[ross10]

None of the above is really relevant to why it’s a good thing to give a wider range of acts opportunities to play at a significant festival like Green Man… delivering a varied line up doesn’t threaten children, or anyone.

[berthasdad]

Yeah, but...cheerleading the 'queer-ing' of spaces like Green Man, while suggesting that this is "smashing the patriarchy etc" is what triggered my initial post.
Cheerleading for an ideology that demands women's existing rights and protections take second place is definitely not doing anything to challenge the patriarchy or uphold the rights and protection of women and vulnerable children. (anyone know the % young people referred to the Gender Identity Development Service who are autistic? Check it out...)

And vilifying (let's not get into 'cancelling' shall we?) anyone who points out the consequences and asks about the rights of women is central to the 'no debate' culture that threatens these rights and protections...jus sayin

[berthasdad]

Anyone interested in women's concerns, check out
fairplayforwomen.com/about-us/our-aim/
www.womensrights.network/

Unless it; all too 'bigoted', 'hateful' or whatever....

[moz]

Aug 28, 2023 7:13:26 GMT berthasdad said:

Cheerleading for an ideology that demands women's existing rights and protections take second place is definitely not doing anything to challenge the patriarchy or uphold the rights and protection of women and vulnerable children. 

But......no one is saying that, are they? It's not about placing 'rights & protections' in any order, is it? Isn't ALL rights and protections valid?

OR.......did i miss that programme? Britain's greatest persecuted group, where there was a public vote to decide what unfortunate group of people are worthy of being vilified for being them. Coming soon to Talk TV.

[berthasdad]

Unfortunately, when it comes to single sex provision, there are competing rights. With or without Talk TV's intervention or public votes (not how laws and rights are decided, last time I checked)
Give trans identifying males the right to use female changing rooms = denying women and girls their existing right to single sex spaces
Place male prisoners in female jails = deny women prisoners' dignity and privacy
Allow trans identifying swimmers to compete in female categories = deny women the existing right to their own sports
Deny lesbians the right to female-only events or dating apps = deny them rights based on sexual orientation protected under the Equality Act
etc etc

But don't tell me, being bothered by these facts either make obsessed or bigoted, right?


I'm going to stop now. If one person stops to think, I'll have done what I set out to (cue more witty put-downs, no doubt)

[jetshymotion]

As someone with the relative luxury of not needing to engage with this in any much detail (beyond, y’know, a basic concern for humanity), I've actually found both sides of this discussion sincerely helpful. Thank you.

Although I did find the proposition that being inclusive, kind and progressive could be anything other than desirable very odd indeed. And it's a shame that things got a bit frothy…

Maybe that's just online discussion / the modern world, but I'm pretty sure that every single person on here has the best of intentions: I don’t think anyone actually hates women / undervalues their safety, or actively wants any other person to feel anything less than meaningfully welcomed by society in whatever shape or flavour they feel most comfortable (and if they do they can fuck off).

Shouldn’t we all just accept that this is a bit tricky?

That there’s no easy way of reconciling a) the legitimate concern of some folk that people with female sexual characteristics be offered certain safe spaces, with b) the also legitimate concern of others to ensure that people are treated equally – given that a part of that equal treatment means not reducing trans women to a subset of women at large?

Personally, I’m drawn to the idea of finding some line in the sand that allows those who’ve undergone [name of] treatment to access ‘women only’ facilities, but not others. But I accept that retains a degree of discrimination and probably isn’t easy in practice, and I’m very happy to be told why it’s a silly idea by anyone with a better grasp of the issues (which, I hasten to add, is prolly almost anyone reading this).

As to the kids… even in my ignorance, I’m aware of enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that there are pitfalls on either side of the debate. Respecting a sense of identity is not a measure of Gillick competence, but nor is the position of some idiots on Tik-Tok the same thing as a workable vision of egalitarianism: the idiots are not a reason to try for anything less. That isn’t easy: educate and respect, tread carefully around treatment but don’t rule it out?.... But it’s far too nuanced for a simple ‘for / against’, abstracted of specifics from any individual case.

It's also worth remembering that while people have had to deal with this shit at a profoundly personal level since people were people, it’s a fairly new thing for society to try and figure out. And thank God it has. But most people (myself included) don’t have even the basic vocabulary – let alone the familiarity or insight – to really know what to think. A well-informed and well-intentioned debate should help inform our response, not have us reaching for the pitchforks. So I’m not sure that calling people out for a lack of critical thinking, calling others poor threatened men or making overt allegations of bigotry against people in drag really helps. Actually, I’m sure it doesn’t.

[Krasnyi]

Thanks jetshy. You’ve just articulated my feelings entirely. Only more articulate.